个人计算机与反文化篇（三）：专访纽约时报记者与作家John Markoff

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John Markoff 语速超快，作为记者出身，又是著名作家，他显得有点腼腆内向。但一旦说起话来时，真挚恳切，对于史料细节与历史判断有著详知的力量。采访在旧金山的电脑历史博物馆二楼进行。如果说 Fred Turner 面对同样历史给出了一条清晰的线索，那么 Markoff 则给了世人更多的细节，指出在个人电脑诞生之际，AI（人工智能）与 IA（增强人类智能）如何成为两股重要力量，以致今日才分出胜负；也说明了我们都应该感谢和平主义者 Fred Moore，没有他的坚持（对钱的不屑，对世界和平的热衷，对科技怀抱希望、对社会运动的支持），就没有家釀电脑俱乐部，就没有之后的苹果电脑。Moore 是至今上万亿IT产业中最不可置信的意外火花，而 Markoff 则是纪录报导了这些巨大且意外火花之人。（黄孙权）

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INS：感谢您接受采访，能自我介绍一下吗？

John Markoff：好的，让我来介绍一下自己。我的名字是约翰·马科夫。我在旧金山中半岛的帕罗奥图长大，距离旧金山南部约25英里。那是在1950年代和1960年代，在它被称为硅谷之前，帕罗奥图是一个大学城，靠近斯坦福大学，是个中产阶级社区。半岛上有一个航空航天工业，有像“火箭”这样的公司生产导弹和飞机，还有一个军事基地和NASA的太空基地，但那时还没有半导体产业。我在小学时和威廉·惠利特的儿子一起上学，他的父母创办了惠普公司，是硅谷的第一批公司之一。然后我在1960年代去上大学，离开了10年。所以，硅谷在1971年被唐·霍夫勒命名，因为当时开始有了芯片公司。我在1977年回来时，这个行业已经发展起来了，我开始担任记者，很快我就专注于基于微处理器的产品，因为对我来说很明显，微处理器将改变世界，这似乎是一个有趣的写作主题。但是我一直对我离开的那十年很感兴趣，从1967年到1977年，当时硅谷崛起。因为即使硅谷在1971年被命名，所有将会共同创造它的力量，在我离开的那十年间，都在中半岛和斯坦福附近的地区活跃。所以我一直对此很感兴趣，为什么硅谷会在那个时候和那个地方崛起？这是我试图解释的事情。

INS：关于名字的问题，因为你的书在中文中直接翻译成了《睡鼠说》，这个名字让很多人对这个名字感到好奇。

John Markoff：我开始意识到科技不是孤立存在的，我试图理解1960年代在半岛上融合的微电子技术，与同时发生的反文化运动，以及美国反对越南战争之间的关系。所有这些事情都在同一时间发生，而创造个人电脑的技术也在此时涌现。所以当我开始写作时，我试图理解这些技术、社会学和经济力量之间的关系。我在寻找一个能够捕捉当时活生生的知识精神的名字。我选择了一首由旧金山乐队演唱的歌曲，它是反文化运动的一部分。这首歌叫做《睡鼠说》。我想这首歌的名字叫做《去问爱丽丝》，它是由杰佛逊飞船乐队演唱的。但是让我着迷的是其中的一句歌词：“记住睡鼠说了什么，喂饱你的头脑”。这个想法是，这些技术正在创造一套新的智力工具，个人电脑和互联网，这改变了它的本质，增强了人类的智慧。我想要捕捉那个感觉，这就是“睡鼠”这个词的由来。它最初是出自路易斯·卡罗尔的童话书《爱丽丝梦游仙境》，这就是“睡鼠”这个词的来源。睡鼠本身是一个小动物，但更重要的是，杰佛逊飞船乐团是当时硅谷这个迷幻反文化的一部分。

INS：我们非常好奇，像你这样的人一定会和很多人交谈。我猜在开始研究《睡鼠说》之前，你肯定有一些想法。那么在你的研究过程中，最令人意想不到的事情是什么？

John Markoff：嗯，我试图理解为什么硅谷会在半岛中部崛起，以及为什么会在那个时候崛起。这是为了理解创新中心如何出现的。那么，为什么它会发生在旧金山中半岛，而不是波士顿或纽约呢？我相信这是政治和文化事件与技术的互动。直到我写完这本书之后，我才真正找到解释并理解事情的原因。当我遇到圣塔菲研究所的一些社会科学家的观点时，我对事情有了更清晰的理解。圣塔菲研究所是由物理学家创立的，旨在理解混沌理论。有一群社会科学家提出了一个观点，即创造力发生在混沌的边缘。当我阅读他们的社会学理论时，我明白了这正是我在1960年代在旧金山中半岛看到的情况。有这三个实验室分别位于斯坦福大学校园的两侧，在1962年至1970年间。在1962年，有两个实验室在斯坦福大学校园的两侧成立。一个由约翰·麦卡锡创立，他是首个提出“人工智能”一词的计算机科学家，他致力于建造一台能取代人类和人工智能的机器。而在校园的另一边，斯坦福研究所有另一个实验室，后来更名为SRI实验室，由道格拉斯·恩格尔巴特创立，他的目标则完全相反，他致力于创造一台能扩展人类智慧的计算机。因此，在校园的一边是人工智能，在另一边是智能增强或说智力增强。我对这种二元对立非常感兴趣。然后在1970年，施乐公司成立了第三个实验室，名为施乐帕罗奥多研究中心。这些技术就是在那里结合起来，然后被微软和苹果接手，创造了现代个人电脑产业。对我来说，有趣的是这些实验室都在中半岛而处于动荡不安的时期。那里有反文化运动，有积极的反战运动，但这些实验室却处于边缘地带。我认为理论是创造力发生在特定的时刻，就像那是历史上非常不寻常的一个时刻，微处理器恰好在那个时刻出现。而微处理器是由半导体公司开发的，但是正是这些实验室的计算机科学家将其应用于个人电脑和互联网等领域。我认为这些事情表明，技术并不是盲目地前进，它受到社会、文化和政治的影响。它们在一个非常不寻常的地方、一个特定的时间在中半岛汇聚在一起。

INS：这两个人物真的很有趣，一个是弗雷德·摩尔，一个是肯·凯西。

John Markoff：当然，让我看看我是否能说些什么⋯⋯弗雷德对我来说更有趣，因为我的意思是，这是一个很长的故事。他是一位军官的儿子，他在东海岸长大，即使他的父亲是军人。他很早就对和平主义产生了兴趣，他甚至在高中时期就成为了一个坚定的和平主义者。然后他来到加州大学伯克利分校学习，在1963年，就在言论自由运动之前。在言论自由运动之前的那些年里，他在校园里自己一人搞了反征兵的抗议活动，结果被赶出了校园。然后他继续参与反征兵运动。所以在很多方面，这似乎与技术无关，然后发生了一连串奇怪的事件。

斯图尔特·布兰德创办了《全球概览》，在中半岛上的门洛帕克。它取得了巨大的成功，它火爆了。数百万美国人买了这本巨大的目录，这是一本有趣的工具目录。当时的想法是，有这样一代年轻的美国人，基本上对这些工具感到着迷，他们想回到乡村，变得更加自给自足，也许过一种不同于城市的生活。斯图尔特开始了这个目录，它取得了巨大的成功，以至于他决定停止它，因为它完全占据了他的生活。它太成功了。他起初是非营利组织，但却赚了数百万美元。因此，他在开始不久后宣布他将停止出版。然后，作为一个惊喜，他决定举办一个派对。它被称为终结派对，结束全球概览。他在旧金山的一个有趣的地方叫做探索馆举办了这个派对。那是一个非常活跃的博物馆。1972年的一个晚上，他们举办了这个派对。他决定送出2万美元作为一个惊喜，在当晚结束时。但有个条件，人们必须达成共识，每个人都必须决定。在晚上的早些时候，住在门洛帕克的弗雷德·摩尔就来了，门洛帕克是当时硅谷的核心地带，但他是一个反征兵的人，他没有什么钱，他身上只有2美元。然后他站起来说钱是邪恶的，他烧掉了其中一美元。他反对金钱这种经济力量的概念。所以他们争论了一整夜，但最终无法达成一致，所以他们放弃了。最后，他们把钱给了那个不相信金钱的人。所以弗雷德·摩尔得到了大约16000美元，他把钱带回家，放进一个咖啡罐里埋在后院。但有一群激进份子，其中有些是科技激进份子，他们认为这笔钱不应该留在摩尔身上，应该用于支持政治运动。所以他们把他变成了一个银行家。说来讽刺，这个不相信金钱的人最终却成为了资助社会运动的银行家。

有趣的是，斯图尔特·布兰德认为这个实验失败了，他以为弗雷德摩尔会拿着钱逃到墨西哥，在海滩上过日子。但事实并非如此，弗雷德·摩尔因对科技的着迷而相信，如果他能接触到计算机，他将成为一个更有效的活动家。他在中半岛进行组织工作，最终与一位工程师一起创办了一个名为家酿电脑的俱乐部，时间是在1975年。这是一个偶然的结果，家酿电脑俱乐部原本只是为业余爱好者而设，但吸引了一群对个人电脑获取感兴趣的人。当时个人电脑还不存在，他们对获取计算能力感兴趣，甚至不知道为什么。从某种意义上说，他们把这些计算机看作是幻想的放大器，把它们看作是新型的画笔，新的工具，可以让他们做出有趣的事情。有人像斯蒂芬·沃兹尼亚克，他只是想建造一台与朋友分享的计算机，而史蒂夫·乔布斯则明白这些东西可能有市场。将这两者结合在一起，引发了这场创业热潮，成就了个人电脑行业。风险投资家约翰·多尔称之为历史上最大的合法财富累积。起初并非如此，它起源于一个业余爱好者俱乐部，但超过两打以上的公司，包括苹果电脑公司，都是从这个业余俱乐部中诞生的。弗雷德·摩尔是世界上最大产业之一的最不可能的火花，但却让所有人大吃一惊。这种情况在硅谷一再发生。

INS：我对为什么会发生这一切革命非常好奇，而你发现了反文化⋯⋯我想问一下你对现今的硅谷文化有什么看法？

John Markoff：好的，肯·凯西，对不起。关于迷幻药物对中半岛和创造力的作用引起了极大的兴趣，有着极其丰富的辩论，关于服用迷幻药物是否能使人更有创造力。我相信并没有太多证据表明它直接是创造力的来源，事情比那复杂得多。所以在1960年代，有很多早期的LSD实验，来自不同的方向。这是一种在1940年代在欧洲发现的迷幻药物，于1950年代带到美国西岸。最早一批尝试此种药物的是电子和半导体行业里的人，在硅谷。在这些实验中，有一个研究项目在门洛帕克开始，试图系统地了解服用迷幻药物是否能使人更有创造力。肯·凯西是一位来自奥勒冈的作家，他参加了斯坦福大学的作家计划，并成为门洛帕克退伍军人医院的一个独立研究项目的一部分。他接触到了迷幻药物，他组织了一群人，叫做欢乐捣蛋剧团。他们正在尝试这种新的迷幻技术。他们搞了一系列的活动，导致了1966年、1967年在海特-阿什伯里街道上兴起的反文化运动。旧金山的音乐场景就是从那时开始的。凯西在硅谷的技术方面的作用是间接的，我的意思是，他从来不是硅谷的直接力量。但是斯图尔特·布兰德加入了肯·凯西的团队，然后创建了《全球概览》。在某种程度上，《全球概览》成为了第一个向美国广大人口传达中半岛动态的表达方式。因此，人们明白了可以使用这些工具来增强人类智慧。《全球概览》捕捉到了这种使用工具的有趣方式，个人电脑成为了终极工具，它是万能工具。斯图尔特是最早发现这一点的人之一。所以他与凯西关系密切，凯西的团队只关注迷幻药物。我认为迷幻药物之所以重要，并不是因为它们直接促进了创造力，而是因为它们创造了一个让创造性表达蓬勃发展的环境。其中一个例子就是个人电脑产业的兴起，但这是一种间接的联系，更为复杂。

INS：当然，我们对布兰德非常感兴趣，你想谈谈你和特纳对布兰德看法的差别吗？

John Markoff：我和弗雷德·特纳都在2000年开始写书，关于反文化与硅谷关系的书。我的书于2005年出版，他的书则在几年后出版。我们都看到了计算机和反文化之间的联系。不同之处在于他认为斯图尔特是一位创造者，是一个开始这一切的人。我认为他弄错了，这就是我们的分歧所在。因此，在撰写斯图尔特·布兰德的传记时，我发现布兰德在20世纪50年代和60年代受到道格·恩格尔巴特的极大影响，并真正致力于利用计算机来创造这种强大的新智力工具。恩格尔巴特后续开展名为在线系统的项目，这就是现代个人电脑和互联网的前身。这些想法在他的实验室于20世纪60年代首次出现。此外，在大家谈论摩尔定律之前，戈登·摩尔是英特尔的创始人之一。在1965年，他基本上提出了半导体技术的一个特点，即其性能每两年翻倍一次。这种指数级增长真的是硅谷的推动力量。事实上，恩格尔巴特比摩尔早了大约五年就有了这个想法。摩尔就在观众席上，而当恩格尔巴特在费城的一个技术会议上做这个演示时，所以恩格尔巴特很早就明白这是一种非同寻常的技术，并且会有这种指数级增长，会有足够的计算能力来设计他所设想的工具。因为布兰德在1967年开始在门洛帕克活动，正好在硅谷形成之际，某种吸引力使他来到了门洛帕克。从我的角度来看，布兰德是第一个传达者，他是第一个理解这些工具影响力的人。而《全球概览》，在全世界的一整代人都在读，不仅仅是在美国。它是第一个暗示这种技术即将来临的迹象，这些工具将会产生这种影响，我们将获得这些新型工具来改变我们作为人类能做的事情。所以我认为斯图尔特更像是一个传达者，我想弗雷德认为斯图尔特是硅谷创造的一分子。我认为斯图尔特是第一个意识到硅谷即将崛起的人。他在1972年《滚石》杂志写了一篇非常重要的文章，介绍了这些实验室中正在进行的事情。当时我是西北地区（奥立冈大学）的研究生，我读到了这篇文章，这是我第一次意识到这项技术的存在。像我这样的人有很多，都是从斯图尔特那里第一次了解到这项技术的。所以这是一个微妙的差别，但我认为它是一个重要的差别。

INS：好的，我也有一个关于恩格尔巴特的小问题，因为我们拜访过美玲·冯，如果你知道的话。

John Markoff：哦，当然，是的，我认识她。

INS：让我印象深刻，她提到恩格尔巴特在某种程度上对个人计算机持有一些负面态度，你觉得呢？但我不确定，我不知道这有效吗？

John Markoff：道格·恩格尔巴特会如此思考，是因为他服役海军时读到万尼瓦尔·布什的想法。布什是一位重要的物理学家，早在计算机出现之前，就有了这个智能工具的概念。我的意思是，他想用计算机技术之前的技术来实现这个想法。但是，恩格尔巴特意识到他有这样一个愿景，即利用这个工具来帮助一小群工作人员，他认为他们是知识工作者，并为他们提供一套智能工具，使他们的工作更加强大。这就是他的愿景，他一直坚持这个愿景，直到他的一生结束。他觉得人们有时候只挑选了他的一些想法，比如鼠标。鼠标在某种程度上是道格·恩格尔巴特最伟大的创造，因为它彻底改变了计算机。但他认为这只是他正在建立的系统的一部分，这个系统将允许一小群知识工作者进行协作。所以个人计算机作为这个行业出现时，与他最初的愿景不同，他觉得有些人采纳了他的一些想法，但并没有完全理解他的整体愿景。在他生命的最后阶段，他成为了一个有些悲伤的人物，因为他创造的行业在全球范围内迅速发展，他得到了一些认可，也得到了很多赞誉，但他觉得事情发展得不对。虽然随着事情的发展，我不认为他真正看到了谷歌的影响，以及许多工具的出现，正是基于道格最初的版本。所以我认为他应该只需享受功劳，更加心平气和就好了。尽管个人计算机的出现并不完全符合他的愿景，但我认为它实现了他最初的所有想法。

INS：我也认为你的回答可以与关于现今硅谷的问题联系起来，因为你提到了很多事情，我意识到恩格尔巴特的理念在今天的大公司中得到了实现。比如说你对今天的硅谷文化有什么评论吗？

John Markoff：有几个想法，我的意思是在写完《睡鼠说》之后，我写了第二本书，名为《爱与恩典的机器》。这本书主要是基于我在写《睡鼠说》时注意到的一些事情。我意识到在互动计算的曙光时期，有这两个实验室。1962年是互动计算真正出现的一年。在其中一方是约翰·麦卡锡的实验室，他开始建造一台能够取代人类思维的机器，他称之为人工智能。同年，道格·恩格尔巴特开始意识到计算机可以扩展人类思维。因此，我意识到这两个概念，人工智能（AI）和智能增强（IA），是二分法的，我的意思是它们本质上是相反的概念，并且在之后的几十年中，它们定义了计算机行业的演变。这也是一个悖论，因为即使你拥有一台更强大的计算机，因为人类可以做的更多，所以需要更少的人。因此，自从这两个人开始追求这个目标以来，计算机行业一直在试图解决这个二分法。与此同时，1990年代的硅谷发生了一些事情。在斯坦福周围有一群年轻的学生，像彼得·蒂尔和里德·霍夫曼这样的人，他们被称为Paypal黑帮。他们在意识形态上与1960年代的数字乌托邦主义者有所不同。所以这是20或30年后的事情，他们更加关注创业和赚钱，而不像当年的斯图尔特·布兰德更关注技术的力量，不完全相同，但是他们更偏重商业。这是一个文化转变，此种数字自由意志主义的想法越来越与硅谷联系在一起。在那个时期，像斯图尔特·布兰德这样的人走向了更为不同的方向。我认为布兰德的哲学可能最好地由加利福尼亚州州长杰瑞·布朗表达，他相信良好政府的价值，而不是像Paypal黑帮社区中的一些人那样更加信奉自由意志主义，是反对政府的。这就是另一种紧张关系。所以这两种紧张关系在很大程度上定义了硅谷，一方面这种技术是将人设计进系统又将人排除在外，另一种是支持政府和反对政府，这正是硅谷今天所面临的危机核心。

INS：当你谈到亲政府和反政府时，这也让我想起你在书中描述的一个时刻，当时斯坦福的学生抗议，像是包围了SRI大楼和增强人类智能研究中心，那里的人们经历了这一切。你提到似乎有些人的想法改变了，因为他们的计划受到政府的支持，之类的，但学生抗议是因为他们对此提出批评。我想，你认为这是抗议反政府的开始吗？

John Markoff：这个问题比只有支持或反对政府更复杂，因为1960年代斯坦福大学的抗议者是在抗议一场外国战争。所以这是政府的一个行动，许多抗议者相信政府可以做好事。所以有不同的派别，学生抗议者大体上不是自由意志主义者。在1990年代，这股新的企业家浪潮主要是反对政府的，你知道，他们想要创业自由，做任何他们想做的事情。所以现在是一个稍微不同的群体。在1960年代，我看到的是许多在那些实验室工作的人，年轻的工程师，主要是因为他们可以获得免兵役的豁免，他们不想去打仗。所以他们更容易在这些非常有趣的计算机科学项目上工作，而不必去打仗。所以有无数多的个年轻人做出了不当兵的决定。所以情况更加复杂一些。

INS：您对于下一本书有任何计划或想法吗？

John Markoff：是的，我一直在犹豫不决。我的书籍想法通常每隔五年出现一次，所以我还在思考中。我也逐渐老了，所以不确定自己是否还能写出另一本书。我倾向于寻找别人没有关注的地方。我从2004年到2016年在《纽约时报》专注地报导人工智能方方面面，但我太早了。我的意思是，在我离开之后，它成为了全世界的一个巨大话题。而我通常在其他人离开时会去寻找其他地方。所以我一直对材料科学很感兴趣，我认为在各个领域都有令人惊奇的事情发生，例如新材料、新能源形式。我对核聚变能源很感兴趣，也对量子计算很感兴趣。但是，再次强调，由于我长期报导硅谷的经验，我意识到我们几乎总是会被那些自称有远见的人给惊艳到。作为一名记者，我倾向于说任何对未来三年以上会发生的事情提出预测的人，就和科幻作家一样，因为都有可能是真的。我们对硅谷接连不断发生的事情感到惊讶。我原本以为互联网会成为一股强大的平衡力量，创新将在全世界各地发生，而这种创新正在全球范围内发生，得益于这个能够平等竞争的网络。所以我仍然期待着下一个世界创新中心会在中国、印度、欧洲或其他不是硅谷的地方出现。所以我对于生成式人工智能语言模型似乎集中在硅谷感到非常惊讶，没有任何理由可以证明这是真实的。我的意思是，很多创新是在加拿大完成的，但其中的企业家似乎仍然集中在旧金山，这对我来说是令人惊叹的。

INS：其实我们也有一个小问题。好的，当然。因为我们在我们学院里读了你的书，在我们的课堂上对此谈论很多，像文化如何使个人电脑出现，但我们很少谈论技术如何影响文化。你对此有什么评论吗？

John Markoff：所以让我们来谈谈这个下一代的事情。我对生成式人工智能的文化影响非常感兴趣，我认为我们正处于一个非常重要的时刻，而且我发现有趣的第一个实验发生在中国。所以大约五年前，微软中国研究院进行了这个名为小冰的实验。你还记得小冰吗？你有玩过它吗？

INS：你还在使用吗？

John Markoff：我最近没有查看过，但它在年轻的中国观众中非常受欢迎。据说，他们称之为“上厕所时间”，在研究期间，年轻人会进入浴室，与小冰有长时间的对话，有百分之二十五的人会说“我爱你”，输入“我爱你”给小冰。所以大约五六年前，美国有一部非常重要的科幻电影叫做《她》。你还记得吗？它描述了一个孤独男子和一个超智能人工智能之间的关系。所以另一方面，我经常发现科技创新在很多方面直接跟随科幻小说。例如，许多最早的机器人学家和人工智能研究人员在看了《2001太空漫游》这部电影后进入了这个领域。他们想要建造什么？这不是我的反应，但很多人都是这样。我可以告诉你一些重要的人工智能研究人员的名字，他们在看了这部电影后进入了这个领域。我一直在思考，我对技术的看法和技术的演变是社会学的。每一代计算技术，从一开始的主架构开始，每一次都触及了更多的世界人口。有了智能手机，我们接触到了世界上一半的人口，35亿人拥有智能手机。我认为生成式人工智能最重要的意义在于它意味着技术将触及全球人口。语言已经被计算机界面征服，我们将达到无处不在之境。这会带来什么后果呢？我想到了《星际迷航》。电影《星际迷航》中有一个叫做博格的外星种族：“抵抗是徒劳的，你将被同化。”因此，我们越来越多的互动实际上是由计算设备介导的。面对面的互动变得不那么频繁，而更频繁的是由算法塑造的互动，这些都是由不知道在做什么的算法决定的。因此，我认为由于将我们所有人联系在一起的这种计算结构，没有人能够理解其中的后果，人类正在以一种非常有趣的方式发生变化。我对此很着迷，但我不相信有人能够理解这些后果。我认为这是一件非常重要的事情。我并不确定这些东西是否有意识或者是AGI，即人工通用智能，但它们是无处不在的，而且我们将越来越多地将它们用于世界上的一切事物。他们懂语言，他们懂我们。我认为这是基本的，也是一个重大的转变。但我不知道接下来会发生什么。

INS：你有没有考虑过成为一名科幻作家？

John Markoff：我喜欢阅读科幻小说，但这需要一种我所缺乏的创造力，恐怕我没有。

INS：你有看楼下的展览吗？

John Markoff：我已经参加了游览。

INS：类似于2000年来的演化吗？

John Markoff：哪一部分？

INS：我觉得因为我们对这个话题很感兴趣，所以读了很多像你的书一样的书。当我看到这个展览时，我有一种个人的感觉。因为在展览中，我发现政治和经济对个人电脑的影响似乎比反文化部分更为重要。所以当我看完这个展览后，我对这部纪录片也有些焦虑，像我们应该如何讲述这个故事。政治和金融对个人电脑的影响似乎太明显了，特别是在规模和一些不好的方面。你有没有想过这个问题或者有什么想法呢？

John Markoff：嗯，就你讲述你的故事而言，我是说，我认为作为电影制片人，你需要通过与人们的交谈找到一个叙事。我的意思是他们都有很棒的故事，也许可以选择其中一两个，通过他们来讲述。我的意思是，走得更近一些。像李·费尔森斯坦这样的人在这个关键时刻非常有影响力。他设计了一系列的第一台个人电脑。关于史蒂夫，我不知道你能不能接触到沃兹尼亚克，但沃兹尼亚克以同样的方式改变了世界。所以你可以通过这些个人故事来讲述，就像任何其他事情一样容易。而且我认为通过缩小焦点，你可以获得强大的效果。再说一次，我是说，硅谷的人们仍然在尝试迷幻药物。这里有一个例子，道格·恩格尔巴特是在服用麦斯卡林之前发明了鼠标。所以因果关系的方向不对，它是错误的方向。发明先于迷幻药物。所以我认为这是一个社会学问题。我的意思是，火人节是以一种有趣的方式贯穿了现代硅谷的线索。它代表了一种重要的文化，硅谷的次文化。另一个重要的我对硅谷的看法是多样性。这一点我在1984年第一次意识到。当时我是《Byte》杂志的编辑，这是硅谷最早一批广受读者欢迎的技术出版物之一。我的一位朋友是一位电脑设计师，他带我去了Sunnyvale。他带我去了一家印度面包店，那里有人戴着头巾，整个硅谷都有一个印度社区。我当时想，为什么会有这样的社区存在？因为在20世纪80年代初，磁盘驱动器行业刚刚崛起，他们依赖印度的技术大学IIT来获得技术人才，有一条直接的移民管道进入硅谷。我认为这就是硅谷与世界上其他地区的区别所在，它非常多样化。这种多样性导致了文化和技术的创新。所以我可以指引你去硅谷的社区，那里大部分居民都是外国出生的。在库比蒂诺，大概有五六成的居民是在中国出生的。在弗里蒙特、奥皮图斯和圣荷西也是如此。正是这样的多样性使得硅谷与众不同。我担心，由于美国发生的一些政治事件，如果你停止了，硅谷将不再成为几十年来吸引全球最优秀人才的磁场。如果你打破这一切，你将破坏创新机器的运作机制。

INS: Thank you for the interview And please Introduce yourself.

John Markoff: Okay. Let’s see if I can introduce myself. My name is John Markoff And I grew up on the San Francisco Midpeninsula in Palo Alto, Which is about 25 miles south of San Francisco near Stanford? In the 1950s and 1960s before it was called Silicon Valley. It was a college town, Palo Alto close to Stanford And it was middle class. There was an aerospace industry on the peninsula. So you had companies like Rocket that made missiles and aircraft, And you had a military base And you had a. NASA spaces based stuff. But it was before semiconductors. But I went to school as a as in elementary school With Bill Hewlett junior. He was the son of the people who created Hewlett Packard, Which is one of the first Silicon Valley companies. And then I went away to college in the 1960s. I was gone for ten years. So Silicon Valley was named in 1971 by Don Hoffler Because there were these chip companies that had emerged. And I came back in 1977 and there was this industry And I began working as a reporter, Very soon I focused on microprocessor based products Because it became clear to me That the microprocessor was gonna change the world. It seemed like an interesting thing to write about. But I was always interested about those 10 years that I was gone, Between 1967 and 1977 when Silicon Valley emerged, Because even though Silicon Valley was named in 1971, All the forces that would come together that would create it Were alive on the Midpeninsula and that area around Stanford, In the decade while I was gone. And so it always was of interest to me, Why did Silicon Valley happen when it did and where it did? And that was something I was trying to explain.

INS: And also about the name, Because your books in Chinese are directly translated into. Shuishushuo, which is What the Dormouse Said? Makes a lot of people curious about the name.

John Markoff: So I began to realize that technology doesn’t happen in a vacuum. I was trying to understand the relationship between The microelectronics technology that merged On the Peninsula in the 1960s, And the counter culture that was happening at the same time And the anti war movement in America Opposed to the Vietnam War. All of those things were swirling at the same time That the technologies that created the personal computer Came together. So when I began to write about it. I was trying to understand the relationship Between these technical and sociological and economic forces. And I was looking for a title that would capture Something of the intellectual spirit that was alive. And I chose a song by a. San Francisco band That was part of the counter culture. It was called What the Dormouse Said. And it was actually, I think the song was called Go Ask Alice. It was by the Jefferson Airplane. But the line that captured me was, Remember what the dormouse said, feed your head. And the idea was that these technologies we’re creating, This new set of intellectual tools, Personal computers and the internet, That was changing the nature of it, Was augmenting human intelligence. And I wanted to capture that. And that’s where the term dormouse came. So it was originally a. Lewis Carroll storybook, Alice in Wonderland. And that was the source of the term dormouse. The dormouse itself was a little creature, But it was more about the, that band, Jefferson Airplane was part of this psychedelic counter culture That was alive on Silicon Valley, in Silicon Valley at that time.

INS: But also, we’re very curious about like You must talk to a lot of people. I guess you have some idea before you start research on the book, Like What the Dormouse Said, Found what is the most unexpected things? Happened during your research?

John Markoff: Well, so I was trying to understand why Silicon Valley emerged Where it did on the Midpeninsula. And when it did, why did it happen? It was about trying to understand The emergence of an innovation center. So why did it happen on the San Francisco Midpeninsula Instead of in Boston or instead of New York? And I believe that it was The interaction of these Political and cultural events with the technology. I didn’t really come up with the explanation And understand things until after I wrote the book. And I understood things more clearly when I ran across the ideas Of some social scientists at the Santa Fe Institute. Santa Fe Institute was started by physicists To understand chaos theory. And there’s a group of social scientists who came up with this idea That creativity happens on the edge of chaos. And what I understood when I read their sociological theories Is that exactly match What I saw on the San Francisco Midpeninsula in the 1960s. These are three laboratories that were On opposite sides of the Stanford campus between 1962 and 1970. In 1962, there were two laboratories That were founded on either side of the Stanford campus. One was founded by John McCarthy, Who was the computer scientist? To coined the term artificial intelligence. And he set out to build a machine that replaced humans and AI. And on the other side of campus, There was another laboratory at Stanford Research Institute, Which became renamed SRI, ? A laboratory set up by the name of Douglas Engelbart. And he set out to do just the opposite. He set out to create a computer that extended human intellect. And so you had on one side of campus, you had Al. On the other side of campus, You had IA in intelligence augmentation or intellect augmentation. And I was very interested in that dichotomy. And then several years later in 1970, Xerox Corporation set up a third laboratory And that laboratory was called the Xerox Palo to Research Center. And that’s where those technologies came together And basically were then taken by Microsoft and Apple And created the modern personal computer industry. So what was fascinating to me is that those laboratories happen In the middle of this very turbulent time on the Midpeninsula. There was a counterculture, There was an active antiwar movement, But the laboratories were on the edge. I think the theory is that creativity happens in particular times Like that was a very unusual point in history, The microprocessor came just at that moment. And the microprocessor was developed by The semiconductor companies, But it was the computer scientists at these laboratories That deployed it in these applications Like personal computers and the internet. I think that those things, Technology doesn’t just march along blindly. It’s affected by the nature of society and culture and politics. And they came together in a very unusual way In one place at one time on the Midpeninsula.

INS: The two figures are really interesting. One is Fred Moore. One is Ken Kesey.

John Markoff: Sure. Let me see what I can…… Fredmore interested me because, I mean, it’s a long story, He was the son of a military officer. He grew up on the East Coast, Even though his father was in the military. He became interested in pacifism very early on. It became a committed pacifist even in high school. And then he arrived to study at the university of California, Berkeley In 1963 Right before the Free Speech Movement. And in those years before the Free Speech Movement He staged a solitary protest against the draft on campus, And he was thrown out of campus. And he went on to become an active In the draft resistance movement. So it seems like it has nothing to do with technology In so many ways Then a strange set of events happen. Stewart Brand had started the Whole Earth Catalog On the MinPeninsula in Menlo Park. And it became this tremendous success. It exploded. Literally millions of Americans got this giant catalog, Which was an interesting catalog of tools. And it was the idea was that, There was a generation of young Americans Who basically were fascinated by these tools, Who wanted to go back to the country And become more self dependent,? Perhaps live a different kind of life than the urban life. And Stewart started this catalog and it became such a success That he decided he needed to stop it, Because it was just taking over his life. It was just too successful. He started as a nonprofit but was making millions of dollars. And so he announced very soon after he started That he was gonna stop publication. Then as a surprise, he decided that he would have a party. It was called the demise party, the end of the catalog. And he had it up in San Francisco At an interesting place called the Exploratory. It was a very active museum. They had this party at that night and that one night in 1972. He decided that he was gonna give away $20000 As a sort of surprise At the end of the night. But there was a catch. People had to come to a consensus. Everybody had to decide. And very early in the evening, Fred Moore, who was living in Menlo Park, which was the heart of what was becoming Silicon Valley. But he was a draft resistor. He had no money. He had $2 to his name. And he stood up and he said money is evil. And he had, he burned one of his dollars. And he was opposed to the idea of money. As a sort of economic force. So they argued all night, And then they couldn’t come to an agreement. They couldn’t come to a consensus so they gave up. At the end, They gave the money to the guy who didn’t believe in money. So Fred Moore was given like $16000, and he took it home And he put it in a coffee can and buried it in the backyard. But there were a group of activists, And some of them were technology activists, Who believed that the money shouldn’t stay in the candidate,? Should help with the political movement. So they turned him into a banker, It was richly ironic that the guy who didn’t believe in money Ended up being a banker for this social movement. What was interesting is that. Stewart Brand thought that his experiment had failed. He thought that Fred More was gonna run off to Mexico And take the money and live on the beach. But that’s not what happened. Fred Moore because he was fascinated by technology Believed that if he had access to computing, He would be a more effective activist He was doing organizing work in the Midpeninsula. And so he ended up with an engineer Starting a club called the Homebrew Computer Club in 1975. It was the term is serendipity it had this unexpected outcome The Homebrew Computer Club was meant to be just for hobbyists, But it attracted a rich mix of people Who are interested in getting access to personal computers. Well, personal computers didn’t exist. They were interested in getting access to computing. They didn’t even know why. In a way, they saw these computers as fan fantasy amplifiers. They saw them as the new kinds of paint-brushes, New tools that would allow them to do interesting things. There were people like Steve Wozniak Who just wanted to build a computer to share with his friends, And Steve Jobs who understood? There might be a market for these things. Putting those two things together Led to this entrepreneurial explosion That became the personal computer industry. John Dorr, the venture capitalist, Called it the largest legal accumulation of wealth and history. It didn’t start out that way. It started as a hobbyist club And but more than two dozen companies Including Apple Computer came out of the homebrew club. Fred Moore was the unlikely spark for One of the world’s largest industries And it just was a surprise to everybody. That’s happened over and over again in Silicon Valley.

INS: I was very curious about why all this revolution happen. And you found counter culture for…… I want to ask what’s your comments on Nowadays Silicon Valley culture?

John Markoff: Okay, Ken Kesey, I’m sorry. There’s a tremendous amount of interest In the role of psychedelic drugs on the Midpeninsula And in terms of creativity. There’s a rich debate about Whether you can take a psychedelic drug And it can make you more creative. I believe there’s not a great amount of evidence That it’s directly a source of creativity. It’s much more complicated than that. So in the 1960s, there was A lot of early experimentation with LSD Coming from different directions. This was a psychedelic drug That had been discovered in Europe in the 1940s. It was brought to the West Coast in America during the 1950s. And some of the first people to experiment with the drug Were people in the electronics and semiconductor industries In Silicon Valley. And out of that experimentation, There was a research project that started in Menlo Park To try to understand systematically whether Taking a psychedelic drug could you make you more creative. So Ken Kesey was an author, a writer who came from Organ And he was in a. Stanford writer’s program, He became part of a separate research project At the Veterans Hospital in Menlo Park. He was introduced to psychedelic drugs. He assembled a crowd of people around him Called the Mary Pranksters. And they were experimenting with this new psychedelic technology. They did a series of things that led both to the counter culture That emerged in 1966, 1967 on the and Haight-Ashbury. The San Francisco music scene came out of that. Kesey’s role was indirect in terms of technology in Silicon Valley. I mean, he was never really a direct force in Silicon Valley, But he was Stewart Brand join Ken Kesey’s group And Stewart Brand then created the Whole Earth Catalog. The Whole Earth Catalog in some ways Became sort of the first expression To reach the broader American population Of what was going on in the Midpeninsula. So there was this understanding That you could use these tools to augment human intelligence. The catalog captured that idea That you could use tools in all kinds of interesting ways. And the personal computer became the ultimate tool. It was the universal tool. And Stewart was one of the first people to discover that. So he was close to Kesey. Kesey’s group was focused just on psychedelics. My sense is that psychedelics were important Not because they directly fostered creativity, But because they created this environment In which creative expression took off. And one of those examples of that creative expression Was the emergence of the personal computer industry. But it’s an indirect connection. It’s much more complex.

INS: Surely. We were really interested about the Brand. And would you like to talk about the differences, You and Turner, about that?

John Markoff: Both Fred Turner and I started working on books About the relationship of the counterculture To Silicon Valley in 2000. My book was published in 2005. His book was published a couple of years later, I think we both saw that there was this connection Between computing and the counter culture. I think the difference is he sees Stewart As a creator, as someone who sort of initiated this. I think he has it backwards and that’s where we differ. So in doing the biography of Stewart Brand, What I discovered is that. Brand was extremely influenced by Doug Engelbart In the 1950s and 1960s, Became really committed to the idea of using computing To basically create this powerful new intellectual tool. And he went on to develop this project called the oN-Line System. And that was the predecessor To modern personal computers and the internet. A lot of those ideas first emerged in his laboratory in the 1960s. He also, before everybody talks about Moore’s. Law, Gordon Moore was one of the founders of Intel. In 1965, he basically published the notion that One of the artifacts of the semiconductor technology Is doubles in power every two years. And that exponential growth has really Been the driving force of Silicon Valley. Actually, Engelbart had that idea about five years before Moore did. And Moore was in the audience When Engelbart made that presentation? At a technical conference in Philadelphia. So Engelbart understood very early On that this was an unusual technology And that there was gonna be this exponential growth, And there would be enough computing power To design the kinds of tools he envisioned. Because brand was around Memo Park beginning in 1967, Something attracted sort of to Menlo Park Just when the Silicon Valley was forming. And my perspective is that Brand was the first messenger. He was the first one to understand the impact of these tools. And the Whole Earth Catalog, Which was read by an entire generation all over the world, Actually, not just America, Was the first sort of hint that this technology was on the horizon, That tools, we’re gonna have this kind of impact And we’re gonna get these new kinds of tools to change? What we could do as human beings. And so I see I see Stewart more as a messenger And I think Fred saw Stewart as someone who sort of Was part of the creation of Silicon Valley. I think Stewart was the first person to understand That Silicon Valley was going to arrive. And he wrote this very important article That appeared in Rolling Stone magazine in 1972 About the stuff that was going on in these laboratories. And I was a graduate student at that at point in the northwest, And I read this And that was my first hint that this technology was around. There are many people like this, like myself, Learned about the tech technology for the first time from Stewart. So it’s a subtle difference, but I think it’s a significant one.

INS: Okay. I also have a little question about Engelbart Because we visited Mei Lin Fung, if you know.

John Markoff: Oh, sure. Yes, I do know her.

INS: It impress me because she mentioned that to some extent, Engelbart hold some negative attitude to the personal Computing. Do you think, but I’m not sure. Is it work? Like I wouldn’t know.

John Markoff: Doug Engelbart had this idea That he got when he was a young man In the Navy from reading some of the ideas of Vanever Bush, Who was an important physicist Who had this idea of this intellectual tool? Even before there were computers. I mean, he wanted to do it with pre computing technology. But Engelbart realized that He had this vision of using this tool to take A small group of workers, knowledge workers he thought of, And give them basically a set of intellectual tools To make their work much more powerful. And that was his vision. And he stuck to that vision all the way through his entire life. And he felt that people had cherry picked some of his ideas Like the mouse, for example. The mouse was in some ways Doug Engelbart’s greatest creation Because it changed computing fundamentally. But he thought as part of a system that he was building That would allow a small group of knowledge workers to collaborate. And so personal computing as it emerged as this industry Was different than his original vision And he felt that some people had taken his ideas. Cherry put some of his ideas but not taken the entire vision And at the end of his life, He was kind of a sad figure Because the industry that he had created Exploded all over the world. He got some credit he got got a great deal of credit, But he felt that things had gone in the wrong direction. Although as things revolved, I don’t think he really saw that, I mean Saw a bit of the impact of Google The many tools emerge That are right on top of Doug’s original version. So I think he should have just claimed credit And been more at peace with himself. But personal computing as it emerged Was not exactly what he envisioned, Even though I think it enabled all of the ideas that he had first.

INS: Also I think you answer can Link to the question about nowadays Valley, Since you’re mention a lot of things. I realize Engelbart are kind of realized by big companies today, Do you have any comments to today’s. Silicon Valley culture?

John Markoff: Yeah, a couple of ideas. I mean, one is about technology after Dormouse. I wrote a second book called Machines of love and Grace And that was largely based on something I noticed When I was doing Dormouse. I realized that there were these two laboratories Right at the dawn of interactive computing. 1962 was the year that interactive computing really first emerged. And on one side of the camp was you had. John McCarthy’s laboratory. He set out to build a machine that would replace the human mind. He called it artificial intelligence. And the same year Doug Engelbart started He realized that computing could extend the human mind. And so I realize that these two ideas Artificial intelligence or Al and intelligence augmentation, IA Were a dichotomy. I mean, they were essentially opposite ideas And they define the evolution of the computing industry For decades afterwards. It’s a paradox, Because even if you have a more powerful computer, You need fewer humans because humans can do more. And so the computing industry has been trying to sort That dichotomy out ever since those two guys began that quest. At the same time Something happened in Silicon Valley in the 1990s. There was a group around Stanford of young students, People like Peter Thiel and Reed Hoffman, Who became called the Paypal Mafia. And they were sort of ideologically different Than the original sort of digital utopians in the 1960s. So it was 20 or 30 years later. They were much more focused on On entrepreneurship and making money Then the original people like Stewart Brand Who were focused on the power of the technology,? Not entirely different, but the dial move toward business. And that was a cultural shift. This idea of digital libertarianism Has come to be associated more closely with Silicon Valley. People like Stewart Brand in that period Moved in a more, a different direction. I think that Brand’s philosophy is probably best expressed By California’s governor Jerry Brown, Who believes in the value of good government As opposed to some people In this Paypal Mafia community who are more libertarian,? Who are sort of anti government. And that’s been the other tension. So there are these two tensions That have sort of defined Silicon Valley. One is this tech designing people into systems And designing them out. And the other is sort of pro government and anti government. And that’s at the heart of the crisis that Silicon Valley Is facing today.

INS: It also, when you talking about Pro government and anti government It will also remind me a moment you describe in the book And when student in Stanford, they protest there Like this exit SRI building was surrounded by the student And the augment research centers, People working there ,they went through all this stuff. And you mentioned that it seems like change some people’s mind, Some people working there because Their projects are kind of supported by the government, Something and, But the student protest because they critic about it. I think. Do you think it is the kind of beginning point Of the attention of protest, how to say anti government?

John Markoff: It’s more complicated than just pro and anti government Because the protesters at Stanford in the 1960s Were protesting a foreign war. So it was one action of the government. Many of those protesters believed that governments could do good. So there are different camps around. The student protesters by and large were not libertarians. In the 1990s, This new wave of entrepreneurs largely were anti government And, you know, They wanted entrepreneurial freedom to do whatever they wanted. So it’s a slightly different group now. In the 1960s, What I saw was Many of the people who worked in those laboratories, The young engineers,? Were there principally because they could get a draft deferment. They didn’t wanna go fight in the war. And so it was easier to work on these Very interesting computer science projects And not have to go fish in the war. So dozens and dozens and dozens of young people Made that decision not to be soldiers. So a little more complicated.

INS: Have you any plan or ideas for your next book?

John Markoff: I’ve gone back and forth. So my book ideas tend to come every half decade. And so I’m still thinking. I’m getting older, too, so I’m not sure if I have another book. I tend to try to look where people aren’t looking. So I covered artificial intelligence for The New York Times Pretty intensively from 2004 to 2016. I was too early. I mean, it became a huge subject for the entire world after I left. And I can’t, typically, when everybody else goes, I look someplace else. So I’ve been interested. I’m very interested in material science. I think that there’s amazing stuff happening in a variety Of areas where new materials, new forms of energy. I’m interested in fusion energy, I’m interested in quantum computation. But once again, This is from writing about Silicon Valley for the length that I have, I realize that we’re almost always surprised by the next thing That the people who claim their visionaries. I tend to say as a reporter that anybody who’s makes a claim about Something that’s gonna happen more than three years in the future, They might as well be a science fiction writer Because they have as just as good chance of being accurate. And we’re continuously surprised by the next thing That’s happened in Silicon Valley. And I expected, I thought that the internet would be this great leveling force And that innovation would happen all over the world. And that it is happening all over the world driven by the this network That sort of levels the playing field. And so I’m still waiting to see The next sort of world innovation center Happen in China or India or Europe Or some place that’s not Silicon Valley. So I was very surprised that generative AI language models Seem to be centered in Silicon Valley. No reason that that’s true. I mean, a lot of the innovation was done in Canada, But the entrepreneurial part of it Seems to still be focused in San Francisco, which is amazing to me.

INS: Actually we also have a little question? Okay, sure. Because we all read your books In our Institute, in our classes, and people talk a lot about, Like how cultural makes the personal computer appears But we talk less about the how the technology effect culture. So do you have any comments on that?

John Markoff: So let’s talk about this next generation. I’m super interested in the cultural impact of of generative AI And I think that we’re on the Cusp of Something that’s very important And actually the first experiments That I found interesting happened in China. So half a decade, eight years ago Microsoft Research in China Deployed this experiment called XiaoBing Do you remember XiaoBing or do you? Did you play with it or?

INS: You still using it?

John Markoff: I haven’t looked recently, But it became very popular with a young Chinese audience. They called it, I was told they called it toilet time, That young people would go into the bathroom And they would have long conversations with 25% During the research period, Said I love you, typed I love you to the system. So about five or six years ago, There was a very important science fiction movie In America called Her. Do you remember her? So it described the relationship Between a lonely man and a superintelligent AI. So the other side. So I often find that Technological innovation follows science fiction in many direct ways. For example, Many of the first roboticists and AI researchers went into the field After they saw the movie Space Odyssey 2001. They wanted to build how? That was not my reaction, but many people. I can tell you the names of Important artificial intelligence researchers Who went into the field after seeing the movie. I’ve been thinking about The way I look at technology and the evolution of technology is that, It’s sociological. Each generation of computing technology Going back to the mainframe, Has touched a broader portion of the world’s population. So with smartphones, we came to half of the world’s population, 3.5 billion people have smartphones. I think this biggest significance of generative Al is It means that technology will touch The entire population of the world. Language has been conquered by computer interfaces And we will reach ubiquity. What’s the consequence? I looked to Star Trek. The movie Star Trek featured this alien race called the Borg. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated. And so more and more of our interactions Are actually mediated by computational devices. Their face to face interaction is less frequent And more frequent are interactions That are shaped by algorithms that are doing who knows what. And so I think humanity is changing in really interesting ways That nobody understands Because of this computational fabric that ties us all together. And so I’m fascinated by that, But I don’t believe anybody understands the consequences. I think it’s a super big deal. I don’t heavy any certainty that these things are conscious Or AGI, artificial general intelligence, But they are ubiquitous and increasingly We will all use them for everything in the world. And, you know, they understand language, they understand us. And I think that is fundamental and a big shift. But I don’t know what’s gonna happen.

INS: Have you been think of being a science fictions author?

John Markoff: I love reading science fiction, But it takes a kind of creativity that I don’t have, I’m afraid. No.

INS: Did you watch the exhibition downstair?

John Markoff: Which? I’ve taken the tour.

INS: Like the 2000 revolution?

John Markoff: Yeah. Which part of it?

INS: Oh, and I think because we are into this topic, Reading a lot of books like your books. And I have a personal feeling when I saw this exhibition, Since I found very kind of because in the exhibitions, I found that there is like the political and the economy Affect to the personal computer Seems much more than a counter culture part. So when I, after I watch this exhibition, It also makes me a little bit like anxiety about this documentary, Like how we should tell this story. It seems it is too obvious that Political and financial affect personal computing, Especially the size and then you’re coming back kind of bad things. Do you have any like ever think about this or do you have?

John Markoff: Well, so in terms of you telling your story, I mean, I think the thing that you as filmmakers, I mean, you need to find a narrative Through the people that you’re talking to. I mean, they all have great stories And perhaps follow one or two of them and tell it through. Tell it. I mean, get in close. A person like Lee Felsenstein Was so influential in this particular key time. I mean, he designed a series of the first personal computers. And Steve, I don’t know if you could. Wozniak is more difficult to get to, But Wozniak in the same way and change the world. So you could tell it through these personal stories As easily as anything. And I think by sort of through narrowing the focus You get that powerful effect. Once again, Silicon Valley people are still experimenting with psychedelics. Here’s an example. Doug Engelbart invented the mouse before he took mescaline. So the causal direction doesn’t go in the right way. It goes the wrong direction. He, the invention came first and psychedelics came second. So I think that the, it’s sociological. I mean, the Burning Man festival Is a thread that runs through modern Silicon Valley In interesting ways. And it does represent an important culture A subculture in the valley. The other explanation I have that I think is important To take away about Silicon Valley is diversity. So I understood this for the first time in 1984. I was an editor at Byte magazine, Which was one of the first sort of technical publications? In Silicon Valley that was widely read. And a friend of mine who was a computer designer Took me to Sunnyvale. He showed me this Indian bakery And there were people in with the headdress And there was an entire Indian community In the middle of Silicon Valley. I was like, why is this here? Was here because the disk drive industry had just emerged In the early 1980s And for technical talent, They were relying on the Indian tech Technical University IIT And there was a direct pipeline of immigrants Coming into Silicon Valley. And I think that is what sets Silicon Valley Aside from almost any other region of the world Is extremely diverse. And this diversity leads to cultural and technical innovation. So I can point you to the communities in Silicon Valley Where the majority of the residents of those cities are foreign born. And there are probably five or six Cupertino, More than 50% of the resident of Cupertino were born in China. It’s true in Fremont, it’s true in Opitus, it’s true in San Jose. It’s that diversity that sets Silicon Valley apart. I worry that Because of some of the political things happening in America, If you stop. Silicon Valley has served as a magnet for the best and the brightest From all over the world for decades. And if you break that, You ‘ll break the mechanism that created that innovation machine.

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